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In the thirty-first episode of the WordPress Briefing, GAAD Co-Founder Joe Devon joins WordPress Executive Director Josepha Haden Chomphosy to debate Global Accessibility Awareness Day and the position of open supply in accessibility.

Have a query you’d like answered? You can submit them to wpbriefing@wordpress.org, both written or as a voice recording.




[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:00:00] 

Hello everybody. And welcome to the WordPress Briefing. The podcast the place you possibly can catch fast explanations of the concepts behind the WordPress open supply undertaking, some perception into the neighborhood that helps it, and get a small listing of huge issues arising within the subsequent two weeks. I’m your host Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Here we go!

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:00:40] 

Y’all, we’ve acquired a fully jam-packed couple of weeks in WordPress. We’ve acquired occasions occurring and releases delivery and contributor days being coordinated (I nearly mentioned contributor days being contributed). That’s additionally what they’re doing. I’ll share a few of these highlights in at present’s small listing of huge issues, however I did need to particularly name out one thing that’s arising this week on Thursday (May 19, 2022), and that one thing is Global Accessibility Awareness Day.

The staff of contributors over on the Accessibility staff has participated within the Global Accessibility Awareness Day prior to now. So I believed it will be attention-grabbing to listen to from one of many co-founders of this explicit day of consciousness.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:01:27] 

All proper. And with that, Joe Devin, would you want to inform us a bit bit extra about your self? 

[Joe Devon 00:01:34]

Sure. So I’m the co-founder of Global Accessibility Awareness Day, which is a day that goes viral yearly on the third Thursday of May. We usually have the Twitter attain on the GAAD hashtag on Twitter of 200 million customers, which is, I feel, just about their energetic person rely. We stopped counting as soon as we hit their each day energetic person rely.

And then, I’m Chair of the GAAD Foundation, which we launched final yr. And then I’ve a day job too, the place I’m CEO and co-founder of Diamond, which is an inclusive digital company that builds software program accessibly by default.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:02:15] 

Wonderful. Well, we’re so excited to have you ever at present. I mentioned we prefer it’s me and the mouse in my pocket—we within the WordPress neighborhood that’s going to take heed to this. Super excited to have you ever at present. So you talked about GAAD, Global Accessibility Awareness Day. Last yr was your tenth anniversary, which may be very thrilling, however like with so many good issues, I hear it began with a weblog submit and a weblog submit on WordPress, no much less.

So I’d love to listen to about how GAAD developed from that, with, as I perceive it, your co-founder of Jennison (Asuncion). That have to be the place you met him, I assume.

[Joe Devon 00:02:51]

Yes. Yes. So what occurred was I began a WordPress weblog referred to as My SQL Talk. So it’s a database weblog, and I simply thought it was a superb identify. I imply, My SQL Talk, like that, must be tremendous in style.

And it most likely had possibly ten individuals who ever appeared. Um, after which my dad was getting older, and my dad was a survivor of the focus camps, and he was a genius. He spoke ten languages. It, he was a type of folks. That, when he walked right into a room, he simply commanded respect. You knew that there was historical past. I don’t know the right way to clarify it actually, nevertheless it was particular when my dad walked into the room. And contemplating all of this that he suffered in his life, watching him grow old and wrestle, significantly along with his banking, was very painful to see. And the financial institution wasn’t accessible, so I wrote this weblog submit proposing that we create a Global Accessibility Awareness Day.

Sometimes I get these visions, and so they by no means flip into something. But whereas I give it some thought, I’m like, “all right, let’s write this blog post and this can definitely work. Right?” And then you definately end the weblog submit to hit ship, and also you’re like, “this is not going to work.”

But I wasn’t even good sufficient to do social media on it. But luckily, WordPress had an auto-tweet function, and it tweeted it out, and Jennison Asuncion, my co-founder, occurred to be round and never out that Saturday evening. And he learn the weblog submit, and he mentioned, “this is a great idea. Let’s make it happen.”

And we had two busy folks, however we each had a neighborhood. He had the accessibility neighborhood, and I used to be constructing a tech scene in Los Angeles. And what I found is in case you mix an important thought with the neighborhood, nice issues can occur.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:04:49]

Oh man, you’re talking my language over right here, serving to folks discover their communities, understanding that neighborhood is the factor that’s the lifeblood of society.

That gave the impression of a tautology. It just isn’t a tautology. You can have a society with an try to not have any kind of neighborhood round it, however I wager it doesn’t work very properly. Well, that’s, that’s very attention-grabbing. And so that you all simply type of talked by means of what that may appear to be, I assume in confidence, or that must happen, proper? Or was it on Twitter in these days? 

[Joe Devon 00:05:24]

Oh, you might nonetheless look within the feedback and see the backwards and forwards of Jennison and a bunch of different those that acquired fairly concerned with GAAD which can be some legendary people in there. It’s type of mind-blowing as a result of I dunno how, how you are feeling, however for me, after I used to code, uh, three months later, I’d look again at previous code and be like, “oh, I suck,” you already know, or write an e mail even and also you look again on it a day later and are like “what a stupid email, how stupid am I?” You know? But I look again on that one after ten years; I used to be scared to have a look at it as a result of I’m like, it should’ve been actually dangerous. But you already know, it type of held up, and precisely what I wrote in there occurred – to my utter shock.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:06:06]

But additionally, it’s kinda good, although, to look again and be like, “oh, I used to be much dumber.”

Cause then you definately’re like, look how far I’ve come. I’m not that dumb. I’m a special type of dumb now; good for me. I all the time hope to be a special type of dumb as I am going ahead.

So then, okay, in order that was your ten-year anniversary final yr. GAAD, normally, now has been happening for 11 years, and on the time of this recording, in a few weeks, however then most likely every week when it lastly publishes, you’ve your subsequent, your subsequent spherical of that going.

I feel it appears secure to imagine that consciousness of the necessity for accessibility has elevated throughout that point, however everyone knows that the work of accessibility is ongoing. And so, I’m simply curious to listen to out of your perspective if the attention of the necessity for accessibility has usually began to permeate developer communities.

And are you seeing extra developer consciousness across the want for accessibility in tech normally? 

[Joe Devon 00:07:12]

Yeah. You know, it’s not sufficient. It’s definitely improved quite a bit. I keynoted a convention most likely 4 years after GAAD began, possibly 5, and I type of assumed no person would have heard of accessibility, and I used to be greatly surprised after I requested who had heard of it, and an excellent chunk of the room had. So even then, there had been a distinction, and I’d say now I see accessibility talked about much more in conferences and stuff. But relating to truly constructing it, there’s an amazing quantity of ignorance. There, there nonetheless must be much more consciousness.

And I feel partially persons are a bit bit scared to dip their toe as a result of they’re scared that they’re going to be informed that “no, it’s not accessible,” or that they’re going to say the incorrect phrase or offend someone. So I’d say that there’s a point of trepidation, but additionally builders, and it’s not simply builders, designers, and product folks. There’s a lot to study, and it’s like, “oh God, there’s another piece that I have to learn.”

And I’m so glad that you simply invited me on this podcast as a result of it’s the builders that, you already know, I’m a developer, not anymore, I haven’t touched code in years, however that’s the place I got here from. Right? This is my peach, proper? Particularly WordPress people, as a result of I had carried out a good bit of WordPress earlier than I moved on to another issues. And, I feel now we have to speak about usability and perceive that accessibility is a lot greater than how we take a look at incapacity.

And in case you don’t thoughts, I’m going to ask you a query. How do you assume the everyday WordPress developer or designer would outline incapacity?

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:09:05]

within the sorts of conversations that I’ve had over time, it incessantly has to do with visible issues. Because it’s simply screens all day, proper? And that’s a main space the place our designers and builders actually have made some effort.

But my private favourite kind of, of instance, for like, whenever you’re taking a look at the right way to ensure that your merchandise are accessible is, what, if it’s important to use your web site, or it’s important to construct your web site utilizing just one arm. Because that offers you a chance to type of take a look at incapacity from a everlasting standpoint.

Like in case you have misplaced everlasting use of 1 arm, but additionally offers you a chance to have a look at the short-term choices for that kind of lack of mobility. Like you’re a mom with an toddler, and so you’ve to have the ability to, you already know, get your stuff carried out with one arm. And so I do know that we paid a bunch of consideration to display readers and what works in not manner again in 2018 and 2019 did numerous work with. Literally zero display. And can you continue to do the factor that it’s essential do, which was extremely tough. And I used to be actually excited to see what our builders got here up with round that. But I feel that that’s fairly a little bit of that dialogue as we’re going by means of it from the start to the finish.

[Joe Devon 00:10:27]

Yeah. I imply, that’s an important reply, and also you undoubtedly perceive a number of the nuances manner higher than I feel that the common creator, digital product creator, I’m together with the, you already know, the product folks, the designers, and the builders. 

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:10:42]

We’re very lucky to have extra than simply builders in WordPress.

[Joe Devon 00:10:50]

The cause I carry this up is that the WHO (World Health Organization) needed to; they’re those that did huge analysis throughout the globe. And they needed to, they needed to give you a definition, and of their definition, they wanted to attract a line. Typically, I don’t keep in mind the precise factor trigger it’s a 350-page report, and I stored on the lookout for the place they outlined it once more.

It was a bit arduous to search out, however basically it’s if there’s a significant incapacity or a incapacity that impacts some good portion of your day-to-day actions. And that’s actually nice whenever you’re attempting to do a report on what number of disabilities there are on the market; what share of the inhabitants has a incapacity?

And their figures are one thing like 15% of the inhabitants has a incapacity, which is a large quantity. But on the identical time, in addition they talked about that 2.2 billion folks have a visible impairment. And we additionally know that over 33% of the inhabitants is over 50, and I’m included in that inhabitants. And I can say that whenever you’re over 50, you already know, I’ve acquired clouds in my eyes.

I don’t know the place they got here from, however they undoubtedly make it tougher to see. When I’m in a restaurant, I can’t give attention to the particular person throughout from me the identical manner. My listening to just isn’t the identical, and anyone over 50 goes to have sure impairments and gained’t see as properly; shade distinction points are a giant deal.

Being capable of elevate the font is a giant deal. And I feel that accessibility is linked in most individuals’s minds with incapacity. And they’ll connect that to one thing like being blind or being deaf or arduous of listening to or having a lacking limb or having another type of incapacity.

And, consequently, they’re like, “well, I don’t even know any people in that category possibly,” and consequently, they’re like, “well, how important is this?” Yes. They may really feel responsible. I ought to do the precise factor. This is the precise factor to do. But truthfully, like how a lot cash ought to I spend on it? How a lot, what share of my time ought to I spend on it?

And it’s as a result of they don’t understand that everyone has totally different skills. And so, I’m beginning to go away from even speaking about disabilities and asking folks to keep in mind that all of us understand issues in another way.

Do you keep in mind the gold costume the place they had been attempting to say, what shade is that this costume? Is it gold and white or blue and black? And it’s blue and black, however to me, all I see is gold and white. And then there was Laurel or Yanny. Do you keep in mind that?. And some folks heard it, and usually older folks heard it as Laurel, and I’ve, and I do that in a few of my shows. I play that, that sound. And normally, it’s Laurel for me, however generally it’s Yanny. Even personally, it adjustments.

And so, now we have a very totally different notion. Now take into consideration reminiscence. There’s a special type of blindness. If you attempt to keep in mind, let’s say a relative or a buddy that’s not. How properly do you see that image?

Because for me, it is vitally, very imprecise, however for some folks, they are saying, and I’ve been asking folks, and I’d love your reply as properly. How vivid is it? And some folks say, I can learn the, I can see the sample on the shirt. It’s as vivid as if I see with opening my eyes, seeing, you already know, the common in entrance of me, and I may even learn a reputation tag within the reminiscence.

And I’m like, Woah, so possibly I’m blind in a manner. Right? So how do you see it? How do you keep in mind issues? 

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:14:42]

Oh, I’m a, I’m an actual visible particular person and a tactile particular person. And so, like if I interacted with somebody, I’m very probably to have the ability to image, like, recreate that psychological image fairly properly in my thoughts. I lately, very lately, met a few of my first folks in that government management area who had been like, yeah, I don’t, I don’t visualize issues.

And I used to be like, what are you, how do you do that work? Because like, you’ve to have the ability to try this. And they had been like, no, I don’t have psychological footage. 

[Joe Devon 00:15:13]

Some folks don’t have an inside dialogue. 

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:15:17]

I don’t perceive that both, 

[Joe Devon 00:15:19]

Me both. So accessibility research all of those variations with respect to the way you’re presenting all of this info.

And in case you don’t take note of accessibility, you’re actually simply lacking out. And then there’s colorblindness. If you’re creating one thing like slack that has an internet/offline indicator, and also you solely use purple and inexperienced for people who find themselves colorblind, they see grey and grey. And so what I’m attempting to show the neighborhood with digital product creators is that no, you can’t ignore it.

You can ignore accessibility, however then you definately’re not good at your job. I imply, I don’t imply to say it in an offensive manner, however you’re not good at your job in case you’re unaware. If you break a rule on function, nice. But in case you don’t know the rule, it’s only a lack of craft, and also you completely ought to make it a precedence.

And you’re not doing it as a charity. You’re doing it since you care about your customers, and also you care about your craft, and also you need to construct issues properly, and it’s a necessity. And I feel that that is the type of message that our neighborhood wants to listen to. 

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:16:31]

I need to contact on one thing that you simply kind of introduced up a bit, um, firstly of the reply there.

So you introduced up the idea of usability. And within the final time that I did a podcast about accessibility, I outlined accessibility as a subset of usability. Do you assume that if we had been to constantly draw that line for folks in order that it’s not similar to accessibility is that this factor that it’s best to do exterior of usability?

If we had been to extra constantly draw that line, do you assume that that may assist folks to see and perceive higher that its shades of existence, usability, and accessibility?  

[Joe Devon 00:17:10]

Oh, 100%, 100%. And in my firm, we type of realized that that’s precisely what now we have to do. We should see this as usability.

And I don’t, we speak about accessibility quite a bit, however I don’t need to. It’s a part of the plumbing for us. We’ve made it a part of the plumbing, and I can inform you it’s a wrestle to take accessibility and make it a part of a corporation, even whenever you’re bringing it top-down, consider it or not. For our groups, significantly the designers, they’re blown away by what they’re studying as a result of they’re bettering their craft.

And design is often the place there’s a wrestle to get accessibility accepted as a result of there appears to be a really robust thought of what a design ought to appear to be. And I feel it’s actually concerning the strategy as a result of UX and design it’s all about empathy for folks. And whenever you strategy it, not as, despite the fact that empathy ought to imply that, that, you already know, do the precise factor on the identical time, it’s extra about empathy on your person, and your person consists of a lot extra than simply folks with disabilities that you simply haven’t run into someone that has that incapacity and due to this fact you construct it higher, and it’s, it’s fully blown their thoughts. They like it. They love doing it. And I’m not hiring folks with accessibility coming in. We’re coaching them to work accessibly.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:18:34]

So I feel it’s attention-grabbing that you simply speak about empathy as a part of with the ability to just remember to’re creating one thing that’s accessible as a result of I truly really feel like empathy is. Like it’s being thought-about this gold customary for a lot of, many issues proper now. And I feel it truly is extra dangerous in the long term than as an alternative making altruistic selections.

And so, I’ve a weblog submit that I’ll hyperlink in our present notes that may type of assist all people see extra absolutely my idea there. But whenever you depend on empathy, you do type of should depend on one, with the ability to run into all the points you had been mentioning. You should know individuals who have issues so as to know that the issues exist.

And then you definately additionally type of should assume that upon getting willingly put your self into the discomfort of that type of incapacity, no matter, wherever it exists on that spectrum, your expertise of that discomfort is similar as somebody who lives with it. And I simply don’t assume that we will essentially try this.

I all the time assume that attempting to do the altruistic factor, like doing all of your analysis and determining what it’s and attempting to make selections on behalf of different folks as finest you possibly can, which is a horrible factor. Still, like selections that keep in mind the experiences that persons are sharing with you after which going to them and saying, “does this make that experience better or worse?” is the extra sustainable possibility from my perspective, that is particularly management. Still, I feel it’s true for accessibility as properly, and doubtless product design as a complete, nevertheless it’s very tough. Like folks actually really feel like they perceive the idea of empathy proper now. And I do assume that generally that leads us down the incorrect path for issues.

What’s your thought on that? I feel you type of agree based mostly on what your reply was 

[Joe Devon 00:20:33]

Oh, no, completely. And you already know, we, you, can’t by no means about us with out us, because the widespread saying, and we’ve gathered a bunch of 100 folks with all kinds of disabilities for analysis. Whenever we do any UX and analysis, and generally we’re requested to simply do analysis initiatives, we exit and ask the customers.

We had some actually attention-grabbing corporations strategy us to do innovation and accessibility, and so they had robust assumptions. We appeared on the assumptions and agreed with it, however we’re like, all proper, they had been good. They mentioned, “vet this with users for us, please,” as a result of they didn’t need to collect their very own group.

We vetted with customers, and we’re blown away, all the time blown away as a result of there are such a lot of stuff you simply don’t know except you’ve lived with a specific incapacity. You can’t guess, and also you’ve acquired to talk to your customers and all kinds of them.  

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:21:30]

Yes, completely. Absolutely. What position does open supply play in increasing accessibility, both in particularly the digital area or simply accessibility normally?

[Joe Devon 00:21:42]

I suppose if the query is, what position does it play? I’d say the position it performs is it’s, sadly, it makes accessibility worse as a result of, for essentially the most half open supply just isn’t very accessible. And it’s a private ardour of mine, so I’m actually glad that you simply introduced that up.

You know, it’s so weird. You write a weblog submit after which it goes viral, and it goes viral yearly to a level that you may’t even consider it, that each one these corporations that you already know are operating occasions. Privately, publicly speaking about it. And then you definately get all these folks thanking you for what you’ve carried out yr after yr.

And then one yr, you learn on Twitter, The Blind Onion; I’m certain you’re acquainted with The Onion, the satirical clip, there’s the Blind Onion. And they tweet out, “Now that Global Accessibility Awareness Day is over, we look forward to 364 days of global accessibility oblivion.” And that basically harm on the time, however on the identical time, and I used to be informed to disregard it, don’t fear about it, however I’m like, no, that is coming from a spot of ache.

And the purpose of GAAD was to make a distinction. It wasn’t too to simply give all people a possibility to say, “Hey, look at what we’re doing,” after which not make a distinction. So, on account of that, I began to consider, properly, the place are we with this? And, and so I’ve created a state of accessibility report that by means of my firm, we’re capable of run for a couple of years, and it’s not, you already know, the state just isn’t nice.

And I’m like, properly, what can we do to alter issues? So, on account of all of this, I actually needed to determine, properly, what can we do to ensure that GAAD does make a distinction? And so, I got here up with the concept of the GAAD pledge, which is particularly meant for open supply frameworks.

And the concept of the GAAD pledge is that an open supply framework, when they’re prepared, takes the pledge to make accessibility a core worth of the framework. Now, phrases of what that really entails are totally different for each single undertaking as a result of each undertaking is exclusive. We did create a little bit of a framework, which had the concept of claiming, okay, you’re going to, to begin with, create an accessibility assertion that claims that this framework goes to adapt to no matter, WCAG, which is Web Content Accessibility Guidelines, to no matter WCAG stage is determined and is suitable for the framework. That there’s going to be documentation for anyone that’s downloading this piece of open supply undertaking and attempting to implement it, that there must be tips for them, that all the examples must be accessible.

It’s actually vital as a result of even the frameworks that attempt to concentrate to accessibility. You’ll typically see that individuals from the neighborhood will present examples, and so they’re inaccessible. And it’s actually unhappy whenever you see that as a result of so many individuals are simply copy-pasting. That’s usually the way it works, and so they’re going to copy-paste one thing dangerous. So placing a press release round it, I feel, can be actually nice.

And what we’re hoping to see is that tons and many massive open supply communities determine to take the pledge. And then it’ll kind of be desk stakes that any new open supply initiatives as properly look, all of those frameworks that made it, they took the pledge and due to this fact we should always take the pledge as properly.

And so the very first yr, we had React Native take the pledge, and so they put numerous effort into their accessibility. The second group to take it was Ember.js, and so they all the time put numerous effort into their accessibility, and so they continued that effort. We’re about to announce the following one, however we’re nonetheless two weeks away.

So I can’t say something but, however yeah, we’re, uh, we’re hoping for lots extra uptake on, on the hole pledge as a result of it, it impacts so many individuals downstream. WordPress’s what % of the online proper now? 43%? So there you go. That’s so many individuals. 

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:25:57]

So many individuals. Yeah, enjoyable reality Gutenberg, our present rewriting of the modifying expertise in WordPress, primarily makes use of React. And so, I’m glad to listen to that they’ve taken that pledge as properly.

As with any good cooking, it begins with good substances.

[Joe Devon 00:26:12]

You mentioned it. That was nice. I want I used to be a cook dinner, although.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:26:23]

I like it. All proper. Let’s what retains you up at evening relating to the state of accessibility? 

[Joe Devon 00:26:29]

What retains me up at evening is the right way to transfer the needle. It is such a giant factor to alter. And there are such a lot of angles that you may strategy this with, however on the finish of the day, it’s, it’s a monster.

It’s a monster. There are so many legacy websites on the market. If you take a look at WebAIM, they do a yearly report on the state of accessibility as properly. They name it the WebAIM Million, and so they’re usually seeing 97% inaccessible, 98%. It goes up and down a bit bit yearly. And that’s, that’s simply an enormous boat to maneuver.

I feel we have to at the very least get the newer, uh, newer web sites and cellular apps to maneuver. And what we’ve seen in our state of accessibility report is that solely the very high corporations appear to place within the effort to make their merchandise accessible. There is a giant push with the enterprise corporations to do it.

The CEOs are beginning to speak about it, however what we’d like is the complete tradition of software program growth to alter. Or I ought to even say digital product growth change and to maneuver that boat is huge. And that’s I put it in my tagline in my e mail like that’s my mission in life, and I hope to realize it earlier than I die.

So that retains me up at evening.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:27:52]

I feel that may maintain me up at evening as properly. I imply, it looks as if you’re actually simply personally mission-driven and impact-driven. Do you are feeling like, within the occasion that the work that you simply’ve achieved up to now is what you accomplish, you are feeling nonetheless such as you’ve had an influence?

I really feel like you’ve had an influence.

[Joe Devon 00:28:13]

I’m not a type of those that tries to have a legacy or like tries to give attention to what my influence is and all of that. I simply attempt to do good work. And hopefully, it simply reveals on the finish of the day. I’m simply attempting to have the influence with out the accolades.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:28:34]

I get it. Well, Joe, thanks a lot for becoming a member of us right here on this episode of WP Briefing. You have been a delight to speak with.

[Joe Devon 00:28:42]

Likewise, it’s actually been a pleasure to fulfill you, and uh, and I respect the chance.

[Josepha Haden Chomphosy 00:28:54]

And now it’s time for our smallest of huge issues. As I discussed firstly, it’s packed. Number one tomorrow, May seventeenth, RC3. So one of many last RCs that we’re going to have for the WordPress 6.0 launch, except one thing goes horribly, horribly incorrect, which I don’t assume it’s going to.

And then, two days after that, Global Accessibility Awareness Day, as I discussed, will probably be on May nineteenth. So, this coming Thursday.

And then subsequent week, now we have the 6.0 launch. We have the WordPress 6.0 launch on May twenty fourth.

Three days after that, WordPress turns 19 on May twenty seventh, beginning its last teenage yr earlier than we flip twenty in 2023. So that was the rapid-fire dance card for the following two weeks.

The stuff that’s occurring with and round WordPress for everybody to know. As a heads up, additionally, many individuals are headed to WordCamp Europe in Porto(, Portugal). The first week of June, I’m going to do a reside from WordCamp Europe episode. It is not going to be reside. I’ll simply report it reside. And so. You know you’ll get to listen to me with my hoarsest voice and possibly singing to my pc. Cause that nearly all the time occurs at these items.

And that, my mates, is your small listing of huge issues. Thank you for tuning in at present for the WordPress Briefing. I’m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. And I’ll see you once more in a few weeks.


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